Efflorescence
Member
Posts: 12
Pronouns: they/them, ve/ver
System Name: Efflorescence(Lore)
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Post by Efflorescence on Jan 21, 2023 21:47:58 GMT
I figured we could create this topic as a way to get some questions answered but also to start a discussion For us, we grew up in an atheist/secular household, though did it was a christian dominated area with little spiritual input from other religions. We've had little discussion about religion that wasn't either "what do you mean you don't believe in god" or "all religion is bad". We've personally done further research to understand how other people view spirituality and how it intersects with their lifestyle, including taking classes on Islam and East and Southeastern Asian religions, but it feels like we are still fundamentally missing the Point of all of it.
When it comes to how it intersects with our systemhood it gets weird. When one has a member who canonically talks to and assists gods(or other representatives of spirituality that i don't have good words for), and is more powerful than some of them, it feels a little strange to have some sort of faith. Why pray or worship a god when I can ask my buddy to aid me? I've heard of some systems having the gods they worship join their headspace, and I wonder if anyone here experiences that and are up to sharing.
Additionally, we immersively daydream, and believe very strongly the worlds we travel to in those daydreams are real. We have multiple friends and partners on other worlds, and even additional bodies. Is this considered an aspect of spirituality? Or is it a more secular experience connected to our plurality? Indeed, could our belief in our plurality be considered spiritual? These questions have been plaguing us for months and we have had little avenue to explore our options.
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Post by LoganDark on Jan 22, 2023 0:19:20 GMT
That is really cool!!! I wish I could immersively daydream... I have so many problems with it because of my ADHD, and the fact that I don't think my mind's eye fully works properly...
Those worlds are real!! I think they're real in the exact same way that your headspace is real, in that even if it's a product of your imagination, it's still a real place and not just a fantasy. I know my headspace at least is a real place, and a lot of the stuff I've been doing lately is trying to properly connect to it and play around in it. I've had moderate success lately but not nearly as much as I want, I really want to get better at it though...
I think so? I mean, I'd say so. The whole concept of spirituality is that you have some sort of spirit or soul that is separate from the body, and plurality is typically extremely conducive of this because you can have a headspace body that is separate from the host body. And I personally believe that's a direct reflection of your soul, not just part of your imagination. So when you use your headspace body, which is sort of your soul, to visit other worlds and have fun, I'd say that's super spiritual and also something that I would really love to try myself at some point~
Yes!! I personally believe that every member of my system is their own person and has their own soul, and that's definitely a spiritual sort of belief. Like, as otherkin, even before I was a system I sort of felt that my soul had been that of an Umbreon all along, and me figuring out that I was an Umbreon wasn't just a choice, it was me finally discovering myself. And now that I am a system, everyone's been true to themselves from the start, exactly how their soul is supposed to be, and this makes me super super happy.
I may have super bad species dysphoria whenever I think of the host body, but that also means I have species euphoria whenever I think of my Umbreon self, or how the others can also be themselves. In a way I'm sort of jealous that they always had the freedom to express themselves and were born into a system that knew what type of soul they were from the very start, because I didn't have that luxury. But the way I am now is way better than I was before and I would never want to go back to a previous version of myself. Never ever!!
Arceus I love my system so freaking much, I just want to hug and cuddle everyone right now, it's super disappointing that nobody else is out or else I totally would...
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Efflorescence
Member
Posts: 12
Pronouns: they/them, ve/ver
System Name: Efflorescence(Lore)
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Post by Efflorescence on Jan 22, 2023 19:09:24 GMT
We might have to rewire our brain a bit in order to accept the idea we believe in souls. After digesting your response, we somehow feel satisfied but also conflicted; i believe it's that many words related to spirituality have christian connotations to us and realizing such words can be used in other fashions might take us a bit. But it seems obvious now, that of course we believe in that-I might refer to it as an "essence" instead, but it's the same thing no? I mean, given we believe in reincarnation and such there has always been something like that in our mind. I would say though, personally, i can't imagine a soul being immutable, but instead growing and changing as time goes on (a lot of time though. like in the theory of evolution).
Thinking about it, on the various worlds we live it's almost as if we believe different things, and as such, members who spend more time on this world might struggle with something another takes for granted. for we Know that one member(she is no longer with us) had lived many long lives, being reincarnated many times before finally sharing a body with our oldest member at the end of her life. but despite knowing that for so long it had happened -on a different world, where magic that can cause such things obviously exists- it's difficult to wrap our head around the fact that it happened to Us and not just to Them. There is strong evidence though that everything that happened on That World was actually also happening on this world, due to our system structure changing around the time she died (which we only realized later).
Anyway, your response gave us a lot to think about. I greatly appreciate it, and also appreciate you affirming so strongly that our alternate worlds are real.
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Post by calciterimed on Jan 23, 2023 4:00:22 GMT
To me the spiritual is something seperate to reality, in the sense that it can't be made immediately evident. The closest some of this stuff can get to being real is by it being discussed, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have an effect on us and the world. I think growing up in that kind of environment definitely doesn't help with this, as you don't get to have much experience, if any, of different rhythms of living and cultural ideology that aren't acceptably christian in some form. Additionally there's a trend of post-christian atheists to still maintain the sort of exceptionalism Christianity has in regards to it being the only valid way spirituality can be practiced, when it can be much more varied. I don't think it's something that can be gained entirely from personal research, as much as living in the space the culture is in. I think the daydreaming could be considered spiritual, and I've had other systems talk of similar things, either as a seperate region to headspace or adjacent to it, as well as thinking it could be related to self-insert fantasies and non-system internal worlds. I think it's pretty benign to believe it's real, but there is risks similar to system-hopping and kin-dating and I think social media has presented it in an irresponsible manner through the reality-shifting trend.
Plurality is spiritual in a way, but it seems to go beyond that, and in fact, may shake the foundations of western ontology regarding how the mind and identity works. |
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Post by LoganDark on Jan 23, 2023 4:42:25 GMT
it seems obvious now, that of course we believe in that-I might refer to it as an "essence" instead, but it's the same thing no? Indeed, basically same thing~ I mean, given we believe in reincarnation and such there has always been something like that in our mind. I would say though, personally, i can't imagine a soul being immutable, but instead growing and changing as time goes on (a lot of time though. like in the theory of evolution). I never meant to say that souls can never change, of course. I'm sure mine totally has because I used to be a completely different person. But in terms of finding myself, like what I want to be... I think I could've found Umbreon earlier and still seen myself in it. Thinking about it, on the various worlds we live it's almost as if we believe different things, and as such, members who spend more time on this world might struggle with something another takes for granted. for we Know that one member(she is no longer with us) had lived many long lives, being reincarnated many times before finally sharing a body with our oldest member at the end of her life. but despite knowing that for so long it had happened -on a different world, where magic that can cause such things obviously exists- it's difficult to wrap our head around the fact that it happened to Us and not just to Them. There is strong evidence though that everything that happened on That World was actually also happening on this world, due to our system structure changing around the time she died (which we only realized later). I've also had my system structure change in response to things that have happened outside of the external world, although I have to admit that I only really have the one headspace, which is right now just a little forest clearing... It just means that whatever happened was meaningful enough for you to believe in it, and I think believing in that stuff is perfectly healthy, and actually kinda comfy... having some sort of meaning in life other than just "keep the host body alive" is always really nice, and I guess it's why some people are religious. Anyway, your response gave us a lot to think about. I greatly appreciate it, and also appreciate you affirming so strongly that our alternate worlds are real. You're welcome <3 I think the daydreaming could be considered spiritual, and I've had other systems talk of similar things, either as a seperate region to headspace or adjacent to it, as well as thinking it could be related to self-insert fantasies and non-system internal worlds. I think it's pretty benign to believe it's real, but there is risks similar to system-hopping and kin-dating and I think social media has presented it in an irresponsible manner through the reality-shifting trend. Social media honestly presents nearly everything irresponsibly. I've seen the "reality shifting" trend and I think it's pretty sad... singlets try to induce plurality just so that they can run off and make the new member take over their life for them while they live in some paradise. Regardless of how possible this is (it's not that easy) it's also incredibly rude and irresponsible in general. as for system hopping... I don't know why even healthy/realistic discussion of it is banned in this forum, but I will say that as stated (system members literally moving to a different brain) it is completely impossible. People who think they are performing system hopping are actually just creating some other mechanism through belief, and it can be extremely dangerous not to understand that mechanism. That is all I can really say here. Plurality is spiritual in a way, but it seems to go beyond that, and in fact, may shake the foundations of western ontology regarding how the mind and identity works. Perhaps, if they did not deny its existence~ People seem to know that it is a threat to that sort of belief that each body can only have one mind and one soul. You will encounter both religious and non-religious people who deny that plurality is even possible, for many reasons, although spirituality is potentially one. When confronted with DID they'll say something like the disorder is that they can't help it, but they're still making it up. To that I say that literally all brain development is "made up" in the exact same way that DID and plurality in general can form, because of neuroplasticity. -_- {Hot take}I believe that DID (the clinical diagnosis, at least) may be able to be created by a singlet later in life with no trauma at all. Although, in order for it to actually fit the diagnosis, there has to be some sort of mistake that puts it out of their control. I guess I'd call this "maladaptive plurality", where the desire to be plural is so deeply ingrained that even if you start to suffer, the plurality stays. But these people are a danger to the wider community of DID systems, because they are systems not caused by structural dissociation, so they would work differently. FWIW, I also have a very deeply ingrained desire to be plural... |
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DHC-Fawn
Member
Posts: 18
Pronouns: Fae/She/They
System Name: The Dragonheart Collective
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Post by DHC-Fawn on Jan 24, 2023 17:47:15 GMT
Hi, so defining 'spirituality' is hard, and everyone has a bit of a different answer. But first off- Spirituality =/= religion. One can have a spiritual experience and one can believe in things deemed spiritual(ghosts, reincarnation, witchcraft, etc) without being religious.
Our answer for what spirituality is is that it could be described as any belief/philosophy that isnt outright provable by science or a practice/tradition whos effects are not provable or disprovable by science, but thats pretty broad.
Religion is a bit difficult to describe as well, and also isn't just worshiping gods like one might expect. Buddhism is a religion for example, but its more grounded in cultural practices and philosophies than anything.
For some, religion or spirituality is a 'theory of everything' as it were, or a hoping for favor from something stronger and bigger than you. For others its a philosophy or moral code or set of cultural traditions and practices. For other its a belief thats just there or something that gives meaning to their lives.
For some religion/spirituality is a chosen belief, and for others they are the one being chosen. By that I mean their experiences leave them no choice but to believe (such as failing all other explanations for paranormal things and concluding ghosts exist, or having detailed memories of another life and concluding reincarnation- as is our experience).
There are many 'points' to religion and/or spirituality, and it depends on the individual person what they are.
For your questions:
Not every choice to work with a god involves praying or worshiping necessarily. You can believe in something without considering it worship-able/wanting to worship it and all that. The christian all-fearing you must worship what you believe in thing isnt the only way to do things. You can just be buddies and your powerful buddy sometimes helps you and sends you visions and such.
You ARE having a spiritual belief if you believe in these entities existing, whether or not you have pledged yourself to them as a servant or whatever.
Secular experiences ARE spirituality.
The belief that you can travel to other worlds and consider them truly real places that you can have real effects on by thinking really hard is VERY MUCH categorized as a spiritual belief, and a really intense 'out there' one at that.
Going by our definition, unless you can officially prove with science you are really going to an alternate dimension and how you are doing it to outside parties, its an unproven belief in something that cannot be proven or disproven by current science and therefore a spiritual belief.
Also a sidenote- This specific experience is usually called reality shifting or astral travel. Immersive daydreaming is often considered a fully 'in your head' imagination only phenomenon by consensus reality.
Do you consider your origins theories to involve people coming from 'somewhere else' before arriving in the system or spirituality heavily playing a factor in the formation of your headmates? Do you believe the reason you are plural is because you have multiple souls(not 'we have multiple souls because we are plural', that its CAUSED by the soul thing)? Do you believe your inner world is a real extant place that exists outside of your mind in another reality and that you all exist in another world in that way? That is generally considered spiritual-based plurality.
From what you report, we would say yeah, you sound like a Gateway System, considering you believe you have real other bodies in another reality/world that doesnt just exist in your mind and your system can skip between them.
Though in the end its your choice to consider it so or not.
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